Episode 4: The Employee Evangelist with Daniel Bakh

On this episode of The Employee Evangelist:

We take a closer look at the story and journey of Daniel Bakh, the Persian/Dane who was inspired by VCs and Musical Theatre to carve out his personal brand.

Check out and give him some love on Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/danielbakh/

Favourite Quote from the session:

"If you appeal to Everyone you Appeal to no one"

Thank you for sharing your story and some awesome views on how others can level up personal branding 💪🏻:

- Drive Your Narrative, it will pay off

- Don't lean too heavily on one platform (very interesting)

- Exercise your creative muscles

- Content should be educating and entertaining (Gold)

Enjoy people!

Transcript

spk_1:   0:14
cool. Okay. Well, um, welcome back, and I'm joined by how do we pronounce your last name? Daniel. Daniel Buck, but Daniels of 23 some guys in Copenhagen. But I I really like, and I love because I'm a huge fan of video and you're a product evangelist.

spk_0:   0:33
Yeah, So I work is our product of Angeles at a 23. Meaning I can jump into a little bit of an introduction about my job. 23 eso I basically worked with, Ah, a new product that we're launching. I spent most of my time. I said, essentially somewhere in between sales and marketing, I spend most of my time basically ah, working to go to market plan is what? The user Their adoption strategy for a totally new product within video based communications. So a bit of a bit of personal background. So I am Persian, as I mentioned, but have a bit of a international background. I was I was born in Copenhagen, actually. Ah, yeah. I was actually to an Iranian family who immigrated here. But then when I was quite young, obviously went to an international school growing up. So my education condole all very educational in English. A semi dance is not really up to par. Uh,

spk_1:   1:30
using or about the same boat. I'm also fake. Day can't speak date. I got the passport. Goddammit!

spk_0:   1:37
And you have some Caribbean big in your rib.

spk_1:   1:39
The Caribbean side, half Dutch, Fully Danish. Technically, um, but I can't speak Dutch and I can't speak Danish, so Yeah,

spk_0:   1:47
so Canada sent, sent in the same boat. But But I basically, uh, when I was pretty, I I went to school in China, actually, for a few years out there with the with my parents when I was pretty young. So I went to school in China, and then that's kind of was even even more global experience that I've ever I can't imagine. So I think that opened me up to a lot of new cultures. A totally different world for I guess I was, like, 12 years old when I moved to China. So

spk_1:   2:15
did you learn something every just It was just pure English.

spk_0:   2:19
Yeah, I I learned of some Chinese, actually, I could make my way around like a bargain for prices of the markets, things like that. Ah, but then I basically for college. I I went out to L. A. Ah, Los Angeles. I went to Cal State Northridge and, ah, I decided for two years eso I studied there studied a financial analysis. Ah, it got kind of bored of that, to be honest with you because I started working with startups models out there. I was working pretty much full time besides my my classes and realized that traditional education is is Ah, of course it's important, but it's a little bit outdated, and people learn we all learn in different ways. My learning style is very hands on, like I need. I can't really learned as much from a textbook as I can from actually going out and doing something. Um, so I basically was more interested in exploring to start up space and actually getting more practical work experience. So I started focusing more on that, took a break from school for for a while, and then actually got the opportunity to work for ah, for a VC in in Berlin. So I I left Cal State Northridge toe work for ah, for these Ah, BC guys out of Berlin, Ah, little firm called Call West Tech, which basically wanted probably one of the top performing funds in the Germany, both NBC and also in Fund of Funds investments. So I want to go that space for a little bit. And obviously I did go back to school after. After a while, I finished up with a degree in international business from Leeds Beckett University. Ah, but basically, I think working for the BCS, that was where and I really started to get into, Ah, personal branding as well, because if you look at most veces out there, they're probably the most active Twitter users and some of the most active bloggers out there because they actually get there. That's how they compete with one another. It's based on the branch. So if you look at some ah, in Europe, for example, there's guys like Crystal Beyonce, who has an amazing personal brand,

spk_1:   4:21
and I

spk_0:   4:21
imagine exactly, exactly so. Basically that I mean, in Europe, everyone knows this guy because he's he's putting out the best content. He is basically a genius, uh, content marketer. He's content marketer who monetize is through B C investments.

spk_1:   4:38
They seem this memorandum that he puts out, he writes a long post every year with, like the trends and funding rounds like serious C B. But it's like it's like, infamous and people like wait for his adoration every single year on the

spk_0:   4:52
exactly It's like the funding napkin. I think that

spk_1:   4:55
that one, that one fund yeah,

spk_0:   4:58
that's become so popular that if you go to ah Tech events like a SAS stock, for example, if you go to the lunch tables there, the napkins at the lunch tables are the funding napkins that he made like a map invasive. That show shows you as a guide to a fundraising. But yeah, he's really, really great at content marketing, and I imagine he gets most of his deal so that that grand that he has, that's what brings him new deals. That's why when top founders are fundraising to go to people like him or, for example, people like Christian Johansson, who had, ah, great opportunity to work with for ah, for about a year. So it futuristic he runs a block futuristic, where he talks very openly about the venture capital space. What's wrong and how you can actually fix it. And from a founder's perspective, he's also a former entrepreneur himself. So that's kind of that inspired me to do my some of my own blogging. So when I worked in that space, I did a lot of text based blogging on a medium, for example. On Guy was very active on Twitter. Now I have since gone on to focus.

spk_1:   6:02
I have never been able to do Twitter. I just can't stand the fast speed of it like, you know, in the UK it's a huge thing, but I just never also medium. I just I don't I don't get medium, but I know it's like a stall. It blogging spot.

spk_0:   6:16
Yeah, Twitter is I mean, it's it can be a terrible place, and they could be a great place. There's a lot of noise on there. There's a lot of and RBS on Twitter, but it's also some of the best content that I ever come across is on Twitter to be, oh, still to this day, but it is kind of you have to constantly be on it like you have to Really, you're only gonna see the value on Twitter if you wanted, like 24 7 almost, which is like then you're living on Twitter, right? But I think he sees at least to have I think not to say it not to say that they have all the time in the world that they also do some work once in a while. They do actually, like, spend a lot of time on Twitter because they're not necessarily operational in the day to day, you know, down in the trenches. So I think that's a part of my They can invest in a personal brands, which is a bit harder to do when you are operating. Like when you're actually working at a start up.

spk_1:   7:13
Okay, so you you got deeper into this concept of personal branding their on and then you leveraged it to kind of build your own thing. Now. And that's how you've ended up back in Denver.

spk_0:   7:25
Yeah. So, uh, back to the timeline. I guess so. After working with the German veces, I wanted to come back to Copenhagen back, live here for her personal reason. Professional reasons as well. So I I worked with some ah, fun to call the way adventures, um, which is basically a bunch of young people. Most of them are actually students. So It's kind of the first format that we kind of copied from from the US to have this kind of young people who were like the first professional experience for some people. The father crew, they're still students, actually, so it's kind of a totally different model s. So I set up the fund's activities and in Copenhagen got the first deals in included a person to take over, as I wanted to join Ah Christian Hansen at the A futuristic. But then, yeah, I basically made my way into the Copernican startup seeing that way and then became very active and that that's also when I really decided to double down on the UN personal branding because I really saw the value in that.

spk_1:   8:27
What do you think? How do you think even system in Copenhagen is for like, personal brand? And it's a very tight idea ecosystem. There's other, you know. It's small pond, I like to say, but what do you think of it like and just in an openness like I'm not speaking badly about anything, but what do you think of that? Ecosystem is a place because everyone in Denmark loves thinking. I that's what I Definitely

spk_0:   8:49
Yeah, it's very popular people, very active embankment. But I think to be honestly like that's a really interesting question to think about like it is in Denmark specifically because Danish culture like you probable, so familiar with this. But people are very humble, which which is great, like being humble of. Obviously no one likes arrogant people, but so there is such a thing as being too humble and I think, and when you try to build a personal brand, it only works. If you're a little bit bold about it, you don't have to be cocky or anything, but you have to have a real opinion about things. You can't just tiptoe around topics and not have a real standard things. So I think sometimes in Danish culture we might miss that a little bit as opposed to you. If you look at American culture, it's like very in your face, very loud if you see what I'm getting at here, so but I think people are picking up on people are looking at in the start up seed. They're looking at our counterparts in the US and realizing hey, like, maybe we should actually give it bold, take a stand, have a real opinion about things. And then we can actually build Hildebrand around that.

spk_1:   9:53
Let's jump into the byproducts. What's the byproduct? So, you know, I I thought a lot of the personal brand stuff, and that's kind of been organic for me, because when I was at Cleo, I loved it. And, you know, I was. I was given the position to be free on LinkedIn and kind of share my opinions and and that worked beautifully on. And I was very authentic content for me, and I think that's where a lot of people who did follow me and maybe still do it kind of interested in. But there was a lot of byproducts, stuff that came that no one can see which we can chat about two. But what about you? Have you found by building that yourself on being present, that what do you get out of it? And do you have a motive, or have you had a motive at your building it so the wind stopped for it just because you just love building it? Yeah,

spk_0:   10:39
yeah, I think I think there's a few different motors and obviously depends on ah depends birth of foremost on what kind of person you are like. Some people are just They love performing and kind of being bring themselves out there and like being a spotlight, I think to some degree, that does apply to me in some ways. Like I actually did theater when I was a kid. And France? No, not not in problems like musical theatres and stuff like that.

spk_1:   11:05
Oh, my God. Can you send me a YouTube video? There must be some content somewhere.

spk_0:   11:09
I hope that I have this new recordings of it, but I could get around it. I'll dig you out of it. Maybe you could put it in the show notes if I can find it. Uh, but basically, yeah, I've I've always had this, like I like I like being on stage. I like performing basically. And so I like to do that digitally as well on social media. Eso is that, uh then I also I mean, I like basically sitting in between, like, entertaining people and educated people. So I tried to make my content both educational and entertaining. So that's part of my motors as well. But ultimately like if you work in, for example, sales or marketing those ulcer klier commercial value to doing it. So if you work in sales, it's it's pretty obvious, like it's measured in dollars, right? Like you could you could drive great needs for yourself on the victim post. You get a ton of people commenting, which you can then go on to sell your products or services to, um and it branding. Maybe you think a bit more top of final. Maybe you're thinking just a bit more. Ah, about the branding of your of your, ah, of your employer or perfectly you have yourself, right? Yeah, So there's a few different motors. I think for me, it's it's ah, little bit of commercial because I have actually, I mean, we've driven customers in because of, ah, content that I could elect in. And then it's also just the motivation to educate, and I learned by teaching other people what I've also learned in a public form.

spk_1:   12:39
It's interesting, like when I try to reflect on my journey like what I never went into it, thinking about anything to do with commercial. I never went into it initially thinking anything about brandy. I actually started doing it because I fell in love with YouTube. I found a lump with creators creators on YouTube. I think I started following Casey Neistat and Peter MacKinnon, and I just I got really into video and, like editing. And I remember my first posts. I tried launching that you to show and it's still there, but I'm working on it. But like I did that because I wanted to do enforce myself to edit, cause I I love editing like That's my favorite And I remember the creative process for me, and after a month of doing, I just loved it so much so I I wanted to learn a new skill that there was a moment where I was like, Screw it, I'm going all in And as I remember going all in and I wanted to bring you tube to link it, so I remember that was that was on a mission statement, And then I just like you said, I think for me and what I felt was working the best. Not that I was really, to be honest, analyzing the post I just posted because I just click and forget right. But it was like people really interacted and resonated strongest with fun content that had a message that was entertaining. It's the entertainment that needed to be entertainment. That's where the editing became very powerful because no one was doing editing. No one was like making specifically edited videos for amazing music and, like, you know, intro outro. And I think that about the yeah, that was straightly purity from YouTube watching for years.

spk_0:   14:22
So you basically took that format that you saw on YouTube like guys like Case and I step or doing when you took that two legged in trying todo, which is unheard off, make them still today. There's only a very small amount of people who do that, right? But

spk_1:   14:36
that really was. It was different, but I guess it was like a weight of force myself to, and I just love and then maybe you can deal with this. When I started producing a lot of it, like, you know, every 23 days, there was another post. It was like auto climate, like I didn't I wasn't even thinking I was just creating on like that. I would be in the office and I would see something happening like someone was doing, like, a sales cheer. Or like something was happening. I would just document that I would grab my smart and I had a shitty, um, iPhone. What was it called? S e like the cracker And then just put some slow on. And I was just captured the moment. And then I would add it later.

spk_0:   15:14
All right, so it's also creative process, right? It's like exercising that creative muscle, and I've definitely felt that way. But that's also the most difficult part is to consistently come up with great content because I think anyone can come up with one or two good posts. Uh, but it's about that consistency. And that's also what I struggle with. A lot like I can maybe tell a bit about how ah, 23 specifically how I double down on make him. So basically Ah, now, at 23 I are working sort of like way sell marketing software, right? So I decided, OK, that's also pretty broad enough. Kind of, uh, you know, you profile for me to kind of market myself towards do without living in myself So special benefiting 23 Wells were benefiting myself in a long term without, like, you know, limiting myself in terms of my brand. Right? So I decided, Ah, let me go on linked in and then tryto do like, let me just try for one month focus 100% of my content efforts on making put out two posts every week for a month and then see what kind engagement I get on. I was also gonna focus on video like, kind of like yourself taking YouTube over to, ah, to think that now, I didn't get into as much editing things like that, but I was more about, like, I would just record on my iPhone or my rap camp, and then I would do some screen shares and just, like, show people basis McCool things I came across, like, actually had one video way. I showed a Ah, I showed off a video that Pleo actually have made your your former company rage on as I Hey, look what plea was doing in the video marketing space. This is so cool. Then bunch of people video marketers started commenting and said, Hey, this is so cool. Like, really inspirational. Thanks for sharing like, uh, And then I started connecting with those people. And then that was became part of my network. And then they also benefited from 23. Also benefited because that's a potential commercial value for the members. Will.

spk_1:   17:08
What do you think? Like most companies, this is a weird one. Like, I think maybe it sounds like you're also in a lucky position, but I definitely waas where? You know, You hear the CEO, Leo? He was like, you know, he never he never like gated me like I just just go. But it seems to be working. Just keep creating. There was never any rules of engagement. Like, you know, you can't do post like this like this, like this. There was a bit of trust, I guess there And when I did do a wrong post and I did one or two event, he would just kindly ask, take it down. So it was very honest. I think it happened twice on, but it's OK, but you know, you can't know what the rules are, where the boundaries aren't and the at least that's the comfortable. But what do you think most companies are? Where do you think most companies could do better at being like, How do you attract people who are really good at what they do? They have their own little brand, right? Or whatever it might. Even its resonates with your business because you only kind of, like, synergistically benefit from each other. I wonder where that space is that and I think that's gonna be a bigger in the future. What do you What do you think? How companies could do a better job? Sure.

spk_0:   18:11
Yeah. I mean, there's definitely some employees other that are uncomfortable with their employees having their own brand for some various reasons. It's kind of like actually, I was listening Teoh another podcast with Reid Hoffman, founder of like them. Yeah. And he actually actually talked about how, in the beginning days s Nokia actually banned all their employees from using Lincoln entirely because they're afraid off their employees being coached or like either be distracted or being coached because they might have recruiters reach out to them if they have their public their public profiles out there. Ah, so you definitely still see some of that behavior like today. That sounds so weird. Like why would you like? Why would you not have a link in profile? And especially if your employer told you not to have a link in profile? It's almost so like backwards thinking. But I think you still see some of that mindset when it comes to like being mawr outwards, going like we're having more of your brand putting your content out there because some people they might see it as OK. Now Hacking is representing polio, for example. And then he's putting out this content that may be, Ah, Cleo's marketing director would not have put, except for her herself, right. And that's it's a valid point, I think so. It is about striking a balance. But the way I see it is that my lengthen is my content, and obviously I'm not gonna put out something that is in direct contrast with with my employer. I wouldn't do that because we're on the same team, but at the same time, like I'm not trying to not even mention, for example, 23 by name in my Lincoln contents just to avoid any kind of conflict with that are, you know, just just to make

spk_1:   19:48
Maybe maybe it's like just, you know, if it's your content, you know, as long as like, yeah, that's a good one if you don't really mention it. But and I don't think most people would generally jeopardize, like saying something super controversial that would get them in trouble in general. But I know it's a really touching one, but I agree, like it's difficult

spk_0:   20:09
because because it's not interesting. Content is boring if it's not opinionated, like, of course, don't seek out to offend people on purpose. But also don't be afraid of offending people.

spk_1:   20:20
Favorites is a guy called Chad Western Revolutions, head of marketing and country. He says it's for controversial man, but he let healing and put his statements out there, right? He defends his positions, and I respect that. But like you're always gonna have an audience of lovers and haters. And if you, in my honest opinion, if you don't have at least like 10 to 15% of the haters, you're doing something wrong.

spk_0:   20:42
Yeah, yeah, exactly. But it's kind of like if you if you try to appeal to everyone, you appealed to no one, so find your out

spk_1:   20:49
and write that down. That's got to be the headline of this of this podcast. Your audio. It's

spk_0:   20:56
a good tagline. Basically, there's a lot of truth to it. I think it's better to be a little bit divisive. Light Tato. Just find your audience and cater to them and then don't worry about what other people are thinking.

spk_1:   21:11
But it's also for like, no, go ahead.

spk_0:   21:14
No, I was just gonna say that. I think it's important to, uh, think about like when you're putting out content. Like, of course, you you wanna have some commercial benefit, especially if you're working. Sale the marketing but regardless, like it's about your brand more than your employers brand, because it's like a symbiotic relationship, right? Like your employer benefits by you having a brand and you benefits by the associated with their brand.

spk_1:   21:40
What do you think that of having a side hustle? Because I think this is my epiphany moment, right? Like I loved Cleo. It was an amazing journey. But then, you know, I was building maybe by default, this bit of a mystical brand around me, which I loved. And, you know, I had a lot of followers that just were really enjoyed following and they would send comments. And But one of the things I realized was that, you know, I wasn't necessarily building a platform. That was, like the reason that I could, like, you know, build on for the future. It was my lengthen great. But what if Lincoln goes down right? What if thinking disappears? Like, you know, you don't wanna be to having the other one platform. So, um, this podcast, for example, is my first move into this space. I want to build, like, a almost like a tribe around something that I'm very passionate about, which is like this evangelism. And you know, a lot of stuff that we've already been talking about where I want this baby to go. But it is definitely a resource that I would own, and it could become my own company, right? But I love that that's mine. And like, it's something that I know control. But it also will always resonate with me, because if I choose to associate myself with a new company, it has to the line with that. Like, you know, I'm much more about the employees, like, you know, products that make employees more efficient, more effective like, you know, that are very focused on that impact that makes sense, like because I have an audience. Maybe that is interested in that stuff. So it makes sense to align, but that it kind of defines me, right? So I can't just go like into a completely random industry. I wouldn't fit for me, but I like building something that I own, because in the end of the day, I didn't own Please write. It wasn't my business, but you're fighting everyday hard core for it. But it's a very interesting journey, and I think most employers air like you want your own side hostile like No, I want you to focus 100% on my company because I want you to

spk_0:   23:28
have some people have it in there. Some people have even have that in their employment contracts that they can trooping beside.

spk_1:   23:33
What do you think about that?

spk_0:   23:35
It's bullshit. I think it's a bit it's so live in it. And if you look at so many entrepreneur somebody, founders of companies are involved in a lot of different things. A lot of founders are also investors that they might also have some other projects on the sides, and that makes it on a sense, especially if those side projects are complementary. Within your case, having a podcast like this is complementary to anything that you might want to do for Ah, for an employer,

spk_1:   24:03
I think the value which I mean, I'm hoping to echo. And I'm not speaking from experience yet, right? But if you build an audience around your personal bread and it could be a big one, right, you know, some influencers or some podcasters of tens of thousands of followers, right? Those were followers of you and your your message and then just a space that you believe in right. Imagine the value of that to another company. Hey, wow. You know, you have 20,000 followers that are people that I would love to reach out to in my space. But if it makes sense, I think that becomes something that you, as an employee, can move with. And that's something that you have influence over. Back in the second you get fired or leave a job. You've lost everything you feel because the company also owns the I. P. Right,

spk_0:   24:48
Exactly. But that's why I've always thought about like now I've had never worked like as a professional. Content marketed has never been like my job title, but I always thought about Eddie's from my perspective. You see, like some companies blawg and then they that their content, their head of content is always putting out blocos on that website read. I'm always thinking in my own head, like this person has no ownership of that of have creative of the creative energy and like the content of creative. So if they leave that content stays with the company, That's something that I would personally, at least of course. Now my situation is different. I'm not a professional content market is not my job per se, but it's more something I do, complementary to everything else that I do with 23 right? But for me is always so important that my content is associated with me directly and I own it basically. So whether I go, my content goes. I

spk_1:   25:41
think there's a balance, right? I mean, like, if your job is to create Clinton, you work all day to create content, and I could see where an employer will be like wealth. It's kind of ours because you built it for us and we pay you for this. But I'm a big believer, like the future and everyone's rants about the future of work. And I really hate that word. I'm like This is Come on, guys, it's just it's the future, right? I think we're already in a future of work. But I see the employer employee relationship changing a lot because everyone talks about like getting the best people. And now you know, I hate also the word like employee retention. The fact that you're having to fight to retain people using things like purchase the stuff. I think that's the wrong tactic. But then in order to attract the kind of people you have to a have a great product, I think that's fair to say, like rubbish products will not necessarily attract the best people unless they want Matt Dollar and they just want to get paid for it. But that's a different profile in person, but they could be super valuable. But I don't know this ecosystems, and I and I don't know, I wonder. I'm very keen to observe how employees will begin to be like, Hey, you know, we are a people first company. If that's what we preach, we think it's OK that you have a side hustle. But, you know, we're still expecting X from. You need to deliver for us because that's what we're paying for us. You know, if you want to go toe event and talk about something that you're passionate about and you know, you know, necessarily saying that you're its it's what our company is projecting. But just by being there and getting lots of people following you able by default, follow us because they'll be that where does first work. And I think that's a different evolution on gay. I think I see more and more of this coming where people are beginning to build their influence or market around them. And I don't know. It is really came to see where that space goes. And if it is, how may be right.

spk_0:   27:30
Yeah, exactly. The best situation to be in is probably like if you have your own like like Asian. I said that you brought up earlier like he has a company, right, and he also works for a lot of different companies, like as a kind of those promotion for a lot of different countries. But Ultimate ultimately has his own brand. And he that brands go. That brand goes wherever he goes, right? I mean, he basically just like a lens that brand in some way to whatever Samsung, whoever is like paying him on a boat load of money to do promotion for them or like his own company, he might like plug his own his own start off once in a while in his in his locker. But it's still about his own company like now. I know he started one company that the company failed. He started another company. But that doesn't really matter. Like it doesn't make an impact on his brand because

spk_1:   28:12
it was called Remember it, Hold on, beam being there we go. You know, I was following that. I used to watch YouTube videos from Casey Neistat dating. I was religious.

spk_0:   28:23
Yeah, I think. I mean, obviously millions of people are watching those videos said.

spk_1:   28:26
But you know what? I find amazing about that. I'm and I'm trying to do the YouTube thing, but it is. It's hard like, you know, it's not easy, for that's why there's not that many successful ones, right? But like I just find the idea like if you've got an interesting story, a message, an interesting passion, which you could carve a YouTube channel around and there's some crazy shadows like Wendover Productions, I think is amazing. It, like shows like It's It's informative and it's always sponsored videos, but like I just love the way they're done. But when you get these thousands, hundreds of thousands millions fuck, you're also getting paid for that because their views and get you can make your monetize and like that is content that is constantly available on your constantly getting pick. I think that is beautiful if you do it well, and that kind of makes yourself multiple income streams right without even going outside of your way because it's part of your daily life, then I love it. I love that creation lifestyle,

spk_0:   29:21
and obviously that's not something you don't get on like them. I mean, lately kind of socks and it for for like, having your content library like, now that you're putting out this podcast, this episode you're making for this park as well live forever. They're always gonna be available or wherever you put it like on iTunes or wherever you figure out right? But when I put out content, I'm like that. That's like it's a post that you will see one time and then it's basically like it's gone. People don't see it after that unless they really dig hard and go in and try to find it. That's one thing that's a downside of using linked in as a platform.

spk_1:   29:54
I'll ask your questions. I've been asking everyone and this kind of one of the staples, right? So it's It's about like, Manager said like, Have you ever had, like a really good manager in your career or someone who's meant towards you or someone who's also been a bad manager that you remember or who has had a significant impact on a bit of your journey and kind of the decisions that you made? Do you? Can you reflect on that? Be like actually, there is someone?

spk_0:   30:16
Yeah, I think there's There's a common threat about people who have I've worked river and work for. Well, um, I think I mean ah good example, is ah, who I mentioned earlier as well. Christian Johansson, who is the founder and partner off futuristic. Ah definitely had an impact on me. I worked with him, and he's someone who's who's very bold and takes a stance. So, like he's really great Brad for themselves and has probably a couple 1000 people following him on every platform. But he puts counted out. At least, um so they say, I think he had a good impact on me in terms of taking a standard like, don't be too nice about it. Like if you're gonna put on content, put out your true self. I don't feel to yourself just to have a fit someone else's narrative that kind of drive your narrative and you'll see that that's gonna pay off for your lot in dividends and basically, like if you look at what he's doing NBC like branding himself as, ah ah, I think for for ah these In the early days when he started his fund, he, uh, he used the tagline, probably the earliest V C, and in that in Europe, which is kind of like a play on the Carlsberg by probably the best beer in the role of whatever place, but he kind of brand himself of this young newcomer to the space where typically a lot of people were these old kind of middle aged white man that have been doing this for so long. I'm didn't really have any alignment with the entrepreneurs, So he kind of started this brand about like being being a young entrepreneur, entrepreneurial investor. Basically, that and that basically started attracting more more deal flow to him a day like today s. So I think that mindset is something that I've definitely tried to bring it to my everyday work. Now I've been, of course, at 23 hours I have a great ah, the manager and mentor right now, Christian seem, wasn't who you probably know is, well, there's a really great guy who was a building nice brand for himself. He's super active, also very educational. So that's one thing I definitely learned from, ah from Christians and Muslims. Well, when you put on content, make sure it's it's actually teaches people something as well on its not just self promotional either, but I gets buried just like it's something that people actually can relate to when they can learn somebody, and the touch is a real pain point in people

spk_1:   32:34
I defy are quite a lot of people who do, due to a little bit too much self promotion, and that gets annoying but like you're always gonna does. But you do definitely see them, and I really, honestly think linked in, especially as a platform of self selecting. So if you do something that is just not resonating and people are not responding to it, just begin to get round right. You're not gonna, you know. But if you are doing something special that you can guess, the algorithms can see that it's engaging. For example, for me, it was never about the likes. It was about the reach. I like the reach. It's like how many people can see it because that's where it doesn't. They don't have to like it or necessarily common comments, a great cause. You couldn't get people's perspective and kind of go back and forth. But for me it was really about the reach. Same like YouTube video. How many eyeballs can see it? Because that's remember, remember like in my own, even have watched the content or seen it for very long, maybe two or three seconds. But then, when you see it every other day, like this person is consistent. I think consistency is the most undervalued thing. And being and keeping that energy in terms of creative content continuous, that is a challenge without losing the authentic piece. That is for

spk_0:   33:43
a vacuum, that that's the hardest part. But I mean, do you Do you have some kind of system for yourself to put out content like the content schedule, something

spk_1:   33:50
don't. And that's where I was. I mean, when I was in full steam at Cleo, except maybe a year and 1/2 ago when I was putting content on every two days, I didn't think about it. I was. Maybe I was lucky, because working in a company like Cleo was so exciting. There was so many things happening. And that's the benefit of working at a tech startup that is on a super heavy growth curve. And you're on the sphere of the tip of the spear because every day was something cool to talk about. Like Hey, we just raised, you know, Siri's a Hey, we're going to London tomorrow. Hey, we got it was so much potential to be in cool scenarios on remember it when I had my smartphone like an iPhone. Just keep capturing. And like, you know, I wouldn't postings right away sometimes out of capture video here and a video there and then, you know, Hey, here's a Here's a perfectly

spk_0:   34:33
but that but that's a mindset that you have to get into it. And that's something I still struggle with. Actually, to try to get into this content find set were like, There's so many opportunities I think that I might have actually missed because I also feel like 20 feet. There's so many exciting things, really on all the time thes trips you take and these new customers will bring in etcetera. But sometimes it's about, like, remembering to actually capture those things and sharing those things with, because it is something that people actually want to see it like. This is some cool shit that people want that see they can learn from. So is about remembering to actually share that capture the other

spk_1:   35:08
and the hidden value, right? Yeah, we spoke about it. Start. So, you know, for me, hidden magic value of posting was I guess it was self like, um, promoting myself like it I got when I got tracked, it took like seven months, though of me posting before anyone started to really engage with it didn't happen overnight, right? But then it really began to move like someone posted get 20,000 used, 28,000 used and it was just really consistent. And it was interesting, but it drove so much for recruitment, which you cannot see because I think people when they're looking at a company, you know, I've said this so many times since pop Chester. I'm gonna get censored off, I think. But the grass is like super green on the other side, right? It looks great. Looks like a cool company to work in. But you know, there's a lot of things that most companies or shit at, but they when they project this amazing brand, it's amazing the work here. But when you have people that are living and breathing in that company who are active on social, right, you can see Oh wow, this person post every few days and I can see Obama traveling a lot. I can see what the vibe seems to be like. It's much for social proof, and I'm still, to this day there's tons of people I know what Creo one way or another came through by following the content sensical place. And then these people will probably happy they had jobs. And that's like, you know, the past six recruitment where it takes it a time for five months, you know? You know, I've been following this ship. It's it seems like amazing engine I want I want to give you part of this. I'm so confident so many people came that way. Yeah, I also like you said, new business, but I think maybe I don't know if you could speak for this, but I'm never used lengthen as a sales engine. It was always a Brandon engine.

spk_0:   36:42
Do you mean like you wouldn't? You have never. Because you also worked in direct sales, right? So you never reach out to people just

spk_1:   36:48
only when I was using in male. So if I was using in male to reach out to people for a sales thing that I thought could be interesting. But I never sold to people on them like someone would comment on something and say like, Hey, I'm looking for expense management. So the wishing they would say at hacking like they would just tagged me on post right, which I thought was pretty. Uh, it is cool so that people like, begin to fight for you, right? They put you in in the front line. But I think what's the most important thing? This is unstated for personal perspective, right? When that happens, it's important to, like, stay objective. So, like, I would never go like, Yeah, you should use Pleo. I'd be like, Hey, cool that you're thinking about this. There's loads of different options. There's spend us Soldo. There's Ah, Pleo. There's a few depends on you guys, your company, your values, how you want to work, how you don't want to work. You know what? Here the option. Take a look at them. If you want a war, you can always reach out to us at such a different position than saying like Hey, and were the best. You should know that you're the best and by giving people because if someone's asking, I'm looking for suggestions. Give them damn suggestions. Don't just give them Hey, what's your phone number? I'll give you a call. That's not what they asked for. And that's annoying. No, no, no. So

spk_0:   38:01
you're an adviser. I mean, are you an adviser to people? That's what you want to be, right, that you're more. But

spk_1:   38:05
take that stance and I don't think it's easy when you have. If you're a sales person, specifically, if you have a massive pipeline and you know pressure to close deals, I think the pressure changes the game. But I think the differences in that scenario I just described that's a freebie. I never would have seen that meat or whatever if someone had intact me. So you shouldn't see that as something that you have claimed. That is something that is like, if I get it great. But I just spent 10 seconds doing a post that if I get something from it, great. But like I've just tried to add value to that conversation

spk_0:   38:38
exacted by Vanessa Key, right, like adding value. I think thinking is instead of but to be, if I could be totally you Frank here, I think there's so much ship content on LinkedIn and I've been a part of that. I put out shit content on lengthen too much like it's over the first post that I put out. We're not good. If I go back and look at him today, I gonna cringe pretty hard. But

spk_1:   39:00
yeah, just like

spk_0:   39:02
you have to start somewhere. And that's just how it gets better. It's like any other skill or any other endeavour that you put out to get better at right. But honestly, there's a lot of crap I'm thinking thes days. Um, a lot of it is too self promotional, and a lot of it is just too Ah, shamelessly sales as well on that. But I

spk_1:   39:23
got a good laugh at this one. I saw one founder post like, Hey, I made the hard decision today to send my staff home. I saw one video, and the next day I saw five all founders jumped on that train superfast like, Oh, shit, I do. This, too, is a trend that I find interesting because someone leads the way. But then, like and I still see people being like, oh, today, the hard decisions like I get it and you know, it's a tough situation to be in, but like,

spk_0:   39:50
that's a good example, because, I mean, that's now that this whole Corona virus thing is going on. It's so unfortunate, right? And you see these people just shamelessly like it's a little bit sleazy in somewhere. Yeah, just say, Hey, like because of current Arise were giving 50% off of our whatever tool that has nothing that actually doesn't help. So the problem at all, I mean that and that's that's exactly what I'm talking about. People are gonna do that regardless of the medium. It's not just making

spk_1:   40:17
one respect. I admire the hustle. I admire the hostile, but like I don't know, it's a It's a very borderline, but try to

spk_0:   40:24
help. I mean, there's some companies out there like Exume, for example, for one on one cold, right? They really tried to, like, help people out. They tried to say, Like all schools, they're gonna get Zoom Ah, for free, Fair so that students could still like, be educated like there are still trying to help out, and that obviously, like they're not gonna make any money of that in the short term. But in the long term, that's gonna drive massive brand value for zoom. Now everyone is saying, Well, look at the sound of Zoom and zoom. Such is like, you know, actually generally trying to help.

spk_1:   40:54
But I think this is a real interesting moment where you'll really spot the true leaders so leadership in when it steps up. Right now, it's the ones who make those most first. It's that first company started offering things for free because they realize, let's make that move quickly. This is like standard. Of course, we're gonna do this. This is part of our brand. You need to just offer it for free. You know, maybe it might be valuable later, but you know, this is the right thing kicking. It's then the second and third people. They jump on the bandwagon, right, and you could just tell that they're doing it because there's a bit of a trend starting just with that announcement thing. And I think it's the ones that made the first groups that you should really be like. I respect that. Like you guys have been proactive, you're the ones who first made the call to send your staff home. You haven't waited for the things to escalate because leadership is strong enough to make a decision. And anyone listening, you know, I think an interesting topic is. Well, I have to ask you after I I shares, you know, why did you join 23? Why did you join the company that you're in right now? For me, it's always been about the vision and the founders. I'm a founder's person, like I need to be 1000%. Like I love those founders. I respect how you guys do things. How do you do business the day in the second that I distribute with that, Which is what happened to me, kind of Cleo. I just didn't necessarily agree with decisions that were being made, which is normal in evolution. The day that starts happening this day, you walk away because that's that's what you live in a heartbeat for, right? That's my perspective. So that's the hardest thing to evaluate when you want to job versus when you have the privilege to be able to pick and choose a job.

spk_0:   42:28
Definitely. Why grown 23. I mean, that's it's a very good question, I think, for me. So I actually I mean, I made that transition actually from working in the investment world to wanted to work in the start up well, like more directly like being down in the trenches in operational environment and the in a start up. So that was my first kind of motivation. So I wanted to find an interesting company, and 23 had been on my radar for a while, actually. And also because of the founders. 23. So Stephan and Thomas, the two founders of 23 had known about them. I met the Met Thomas one or two times beforehand. The super active in the start of people system. Both of them are someone I really respect. And I think like they're really the way that they've built this company is ah, culture first. And that's that resonates a lot with me. Like the people I work with every day are amazing. And I heard about the culture 23. That's kind of what attracted me into the company.

spk_1:   43:27
Yeah, you know, I think I I think I know it's a luxury problem, right, I think, But I say I've heard. So if you don't, if you don't really let you in love with your work and you want and that three when I left clear like it's I mentioned the block post and woke up three weeks in a row. I just didn't want go and 90. That was it was game over.

spk_0:   43:48
Yeah. I mean, if you find yourself in that spot that you have better things to, um you're also ah, young guy yourself. Right? So

spk_1:   43:55
and they think circumstances, right. So, like when you don't have a mortgage, kids, lots of expenses, it doesn't make it. But anyway, OK, coming to an end. I think we've been speaking for ages, and I love this shot. I think you could talk to her age. Some of it. Um, yeah. Two more things. I'll hand it over to you. This is something I've been trying to ask on every podcast. Think so? I want to kind of keep it going. Do you have a question for me? You know, I've told you about the podcast where it could be going, You know, you know me for a bit. Any burning questions they hate You know, I love I'd love Teoh for us. A chat about this or anything Spurning.

spk_0:   44:31
Yeah. I mean, I think it's super cool what you're doing with this podcast right now that you're trying to build a platform that you own. So I'm, like, thinking Like what? What did you realize that this is the way to do it? Because I think that is the way to do it. Like to play when you're building content, you want toe own the platform. So when are you building this podcast? Which is your platform? Like a wall of the trigger for that,

spk_1:   44:52
Uh, maybe a few things. So actually started looking at Lincoln, right? Looking at linked in kind of like we spoke about earlier. How you don't really It goes away and you disappears. And I think anyone mostly in Copenhagen who knows about me like Lincoln is my thing. I like all over Minton, right? But then I realized that if Lichten goes away or changes, that's gone. What I've built there and I have a lot of connections, right? Who? I built a bit of a phone, and then I heard of a thing called patri on. Have you heard of Patri on page? Yeah. So I'm really interested in patri on pages where you can build a community who will actually pay you because they want your early access to inside or whatever. That's more of an interesting thing. Maybe later on maybe potentially. But, um, I just I just believe like when I was about to leave polio and it took me time when I left to think of this idea. But like, I didn't wanna have imposter syndrome, where everything that I had built was only because of Leo. And I think Cleo gave me an amazing platform to bills, and that's why I'm so grateful. But how could I transition what I learned and that experience into something that I believed it right? And the employee evangelism comes from the fact that I was allowed to live through this experience and being a bunch missed myself. Not because I was in love with Prio. I was in love with technology. I was like, This is insane. Like this is amazing what you can do, how people could be coming power and they can do things. S So that was what drove me and and, you know, people would reach out to me sometimes linked and ask for the K This lifted thing. You're doing a super cool. How do you do it? I just realized there is an audience of employees who would love to get the opinions and perspective other employees. But a How did you find it? A. How do you kind of filter it? Like like because a lot of people are just your bill. Pure bullshit, which is fine, and I'm sometimes I am a swell just being honest. But I want a car about this layer where you have founders who, like, you know, the founder story, how we grew. But I'm not a founder. I don't care. It's interesting, but it doesn't relate to me or like you know, if you're if you're in between and you're just becoming an employee from being a university student, that's also a different band of experience. What about the chunk, the middle piece? That the biggest piece of employees who have been working for a few years, who might be kind of middle management, senior manners, been companies might not be investing in them. There's a lot of knowledge there that I would love to be filling

spk_0:   47:17
the gap. You basically, for this podcast were essentially filling the gap at the content gap in educational gap that you maybe couldn't find for yourself right

spk_1:   47:26
kind of, Yeah, it's like a small tribe.

spk_0:   47:28
Yeah, because most most like, there's so much good education content that's all tailored towards founders. But I also happen to come across anything that I can directly put myself into

spk_1:   47:38
and ethical. And that's why part of it, you know, the unsung heroes, like people who like you guys are unsung. You know, founders are all preaching about their people are the most important thing, and they are trying their best. I would think for many, but you know, you get to a stage in your career where you know you might have a great manager, but there's a limit to how much you can learn from anybody. And, you know, if you work in a crazy, cool company, you might have two or three colleagues that you love to work with. You get energy from, but imagine if you could 10 except by finding others who are kind of the same. But in different companies. It's for me its perspective. It's perspective. It's like you go into, like a tunnel vision. I'm doing the same thing. I'm losing perspective on what others were doing, and it's not. It's not to tell me what to do. But it's more like I love to Sultan Pepper. I like some of that. I like some of that. It's like my creators. Casey Nice that Peter MacKinnon a little Dickie. Um, you know, I have people that inspire me who are necessarily business people but who are creators, or YouTubers are. And I think people deserve perspective. And and I think there's a massive audience for this, I hope. And I'm not doing it for the audience of doing it because I'm passionate about. And if it creates a tribe or an audience, that's a great piper.

spk_0:   48:52
Yeah, and I'm I'm excited to see where it goes. Let me know if you're listening in

spk_1:   48:56
Excited last thing A. I mean, thanks for your time is I want to close all the part gas with, like, you know, is there one tip or one piece of advice from your personal experience, which has worked for you like we discussed at the beginning of this before we jumped in that what's work the best for you because you kind of got really interested in the personal branding thing and building out your own kind of journey Is there anything that you can pinpoint that you've felt really worked well for you?

spk_0:   49:22
Yeah, I think the number one thing is is ah what? I've maybe I mentioned a couple times in the in the beginning, at least of this of the podcast. But just to highlight really again. And then here is Teoh, take a stand and, uh, be kind of bolt and have an opinion because Stichting facts ah, numbers is not interesting. But try to tell a story that's ah, genuine to you and then do it in an entertaining way as well. So be yourself in the educational and be entertaining. Basically, don't. Just trying to appeal to everyone,

spk_1:   49:57
but hey, Daniel. And that was amazing. Thank you so much. Looking forward to getting this one out and control it. I'm watching your following still.

spk_0:   50:07
Yeah, Thanks a lot, man. Really appreciate the time. Thanks for having you