Episode 3: The Employee Evangelist with Hans Jacobsen

On this episode of The Employee Evangelist:

We take a closer look at the amazing story and journey of Hans Jacobsen, the Jutlander that went from truck Mechanic to Sales Leader, friend and mentor!

Check out and give him some love on Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/hans-jacobsen-580379b1/

Born in Southern Jutland, the man with the best moustache and bear hugs shares his incredible journey which started working with his dad, to moving to Norway as a truck mechanic, working the railroad business and then transitioning into Sales with the dream job of Chief Happiness Officer on the horizon!

Probably one of the most dynamic people you will ever listen too, Hans even shares his interesting perspective on how a SWAT leader changed his entire outlook on life and career and how it's made him into a strong culture pillar in any organisation he sets foot in.

For any salespeople listening, we went deep on some game-changing tips and advice from 37 minutes onwards diving to things like:

- The ultimate sales tactics that build trust
- The power of Endurance
- The value of an amazing coach/mentor
- The art of staying humble

This is one episode to come back to several times for those tips and perspective.

Enjoy people!

Chapters

• 0:47 Intro to Hans
• 9:58 How as SWAT leader changed his life

Transcript

spk_0:   0:14
Welcome to

spk_1:   0:16
the podcast. Maybe to start off with, um, hands. Like we spoke about this before, and we were kind of thinking What could be interesting to jump in? We've worked together at Cleo's, so we have an interesting chemistry. There was not enough to talk about for everyone. That listening. You know, the employees Evangelist is kind of like highlighting the story, the journey and what you're about. And you've got a crazy story that I think it's for interesting in terms of how you've evolved and how you definitely got into sales. And now where you're wanting to go next, can we start? But I kind of going where Who is hands free from, um, Denmark, Which, where you grew up in and kind of the whole story kind of up until now, isn't it? You want

spk_0:   0:58
I can try to do that. They quite fast, of course. Well, yeah, I'm hunts. Like I come from south Denmark. Grew up on a farm, um, and actually always wanted to be a truck mechanic. So, uh, back in the days when I was younger, eh? Yeah, of course. Went to school to be a truck mechanic and worked for around four years on that part left the technical aspect of it and the problem solving. After a while, I or off almost all the time. I also work part time for my dad. Um, he was, ah, hoof trimmer. So he cut, nailed him house. And, um, it also meant when you're, ah, a truck mechanic and your father has his own business with four trucks and somebody needs to fix them and that would be me. So I think over a period off almost over half a year, um, I did two shifts every day. Eso worked on trucks and helped him out while being a truck mechanic. Either in the beginning of the day or the end on and at the end, it was just too hard to be honest. So I told him, Either you gonna give me a price. I can't say no to And I have to say no to this because I couldn't do both. And suddenly

spk_1:   2:14
was it quick? What was it like working with your dad, though? I mean, I'm sure many people and have done that before, work for their family, for example. I've never done it, so I have no clue. What's it like that kind of relationship dynamic?

spk_0:   2:27
It's a tough one. It really depends on how your relationship is in some point is really nice because you have that kind of ah feeling and then you know each other that well. So you know what's gonna happen if you do this forth and back. So there's not so many gray areas, but also those. It's really hard for some people to distance on. Is it work, or is it free time? And are you my employees? Who are you, my son? Can everything? Oh, I found myself working quite a lot when I worked there, mostly because there was Hey, could you please stop by and sixties because I need to truck today? It was kind of like undermanned, um and yeah, when you're not that good at communicating and hence being an old farmer on the farmer's boy and grew up in South Denmark, communication is not the best thing Or there the thing you've learned from the beginning there was a lot of yeah, fourth and back. And then we split ways and not so nice way. But yeah, things got the wouldn't say ugly, But just one of the few times in my life I've been really angry. Quit and start to be a garbage man for four years. Four months, just thio get in some money. And then I turned up to be a hard on that the blacksmith. So welding and stuff like that on trailers on track. And

spk_1:   3:56
I didn't know how do you jump around? OK, is that like, pure survival, Or like, how did you end up in those things? Like what It's like, I need to make money and this sounds kind of interesting. I could do it or this would completely just get get, get by.

spk_0:   4:11
I think back then it was just to get by. I knew I had to have something for you rents and something for food and gas for the car. So back at the Deo, it was only actually just to get some money. And I'm not that picky. And I'm not that, like, I don't have to wear a suit every day. I would actually prefer not to um but yeah, And one day suddenly there was a guy calling me up and asking if I wanted to move to nowhere to be truck mechanic. And up until that, they actually always thought that I would live in felt Denmark. I was just before me and my that split up, if we could say so. I was about to buy half off the company because I should take it over, um, and run it after him. But things just didn't work out. And actually, they ended up working out much better than I ever thought. Because I have to wanna have weak a move to no way not knowing anyone. Um, remember I was standing on the ferry listening to music, smoking a cigarette on the deck, and I was just thinking how that's What the fuck are you doing here, you total idiot? You're leaving everything behind. You don't know anyone up there. And I was actually a bit nervous, you know, the first day at school, just a bit worse. But I figured out, actually, after nowadays, I can't get enough of that feeling. You know, that feeling off, what he actually doing here that's taking this step out of the comfort zone? Um, my plan was to be in Norway for year, ended up actually being there for four years and in between also half year and in Amsterdam. Mm. So yeah, it's

spk_1:   5:51
common. No, I think coming. Funnily enough, I'm also from Duckman. Uh, not not necessarily to south, but from SPL, right? I have no connection. I think it's a bit of, but your journey coming out of Denmark, how rare is that from where you came from? Like, is it rare for people to leave? And I you know, I guess back in the farmland area secondary community, right? I already know. It's why I'm asking.

spk_0:   6:17
Yeah, well, most of my friends, they are still at home. Um, on the countryside either have their own business or have been working in almost the same business for ages. Most of them also have kids, houses, cars, dog and like, our set, if you could say so. I said, I'm the funny uncle lives far away, but yeah, it's not common, but ah, actually figured out. That is Ah, also, what makes me happy not to be stuck and actually live all what I can and I'll get back to that later on as well. I think I think it was in no way for almost two years when I actually moved from being a truck mechanic in the workshop manager into sales. And remember, my cousin, she has, uh he's the same age as me and worked in sales a lot longer than me. And she called me up when I was 19. Like a man. You need to move toe alls come up here, be a sales guy you would be perfect for. And I was like, No, I'm not gonna sit on the phone every day in front of a computer. And then thing was five years later, I called her up, and I said, Like, I have an interview tomorrow. Oh, What is that for? Well, a sales job and she just laughed herself. And

spk_1:   7:37
what fueled that? So why? Why did you like I want to go for it without another random Quinton, where did that jump come from?

spk_0:   7:45
It actually was because I got injured in my shoulders in both shoulders on the same day I worked out, I think six days a week. I had to get away from some anger or get away, get let off some steam and so anger. And of course, working as a truck mechanic with your hands over your head all the time. At one point, your body just will tell you like this is not working. So I couldn't move my arms over my shoulders, actually, and I had to figure out another way, so it was totally random, Just like the call I got to move to. No way. Remember, he called me up when I was on sick leave on nine o'clock in the morning and said, like, Did I wake you up in a uh, no, no, no, no. But actually asked me if I could come. Ah, the day after on the interview and when your truck mechanic and only walk in overalls and T shirts and sweaters, I have to go out and buy a shirt. Remember? With the black one. I was so nervous when I went to the interview because I've never tried this before. Only wear a shirt when I have to go to a funeral or the wedding. And that was quite football. I

spk_1:   8:57
get it back for it. If we fast forward, Then a few years he got into sales. Everything kind of started taking off. Um and then now you're in Copenhagen. And what was that kind of? Did you just love it? Did you They just work out because, you know, we worked together. You were an amazing sales guy, like you brought a huge amount of energy to the floor. Everyone was super pumped when you were around. And you were like a massive culture stamp, in my honest opinion. So when you left, you could feel that right? And I think this is why we started talking again about this because, you know, from an evangelist perspective arise. He was like, You're almost like a hidden evangelist, like you bring a lot of energy and you kind of pull people to want to come together and work, Um, while others, Or maybe more vocal, more online, kind of doing stuff. You're much more of that core. Um, where did that developed from? Because you have a huge amount of passion.

spk_0:   9:50
I think it started when I started in sales because I I drove on anger. I need to have some money for my lawyer and stuff like that because of this Bit of with my dad. Yeah, but ah, really nice and smart guy um called Perry left on from Norway. I'm actually a former SWAT leader in the police force. Insanely friendly guy. And I've never met a guy who's more emotional smart than he is on Dhe. He was really a good thing that happened to me. Um, I was at that point, I was a team lead, which is almost same as a country manager, as I was basically responsible for the whole Danish team. And I started working with him after I moved back from the Netherlands, and it went really good in the first few weeks. I just felt like we really connected on. Then at some point, he came into one of our plan coaching sessions have told me a chance I can feel every time we get to this point, you have a barrier. If you're not gonna help me get into you. Ah, let me help you. Um, I won't do this. And then he told me like, Hey, and I know you have my number. So called me up when you're ready to open up. If not, it's okay with me, but I will not spend more time off my time on your, uh you're not letting me in on. I think it took you four days where he really pushed my comfort zone on actually having to open up to someone that you kind of know, but not totally. And I called him up on a Saturday morning and he was like, Yeah, I'm home. So come out for coffee. I went out there. He lived a few kilometers away. Um, and the end of actually with all of this ended up actually being a really close friend as well. And he told me one good thing he said, Hums. I conceded, You have some good core values. You just need to trust your gut on. This is also writing should not let other people affect you. And we love worked a lot of with positive thinking and and I would say the start of my sales career was quite good, but I I was driven by hate, if you could say so. It was a negative internal flame in my motivation. Well, you

spk_1:   12:18
know, glad, Good.

spk_0:   12:20
He actually told me like you can keep on going like that, but it will eat you up. You need to figure out how to transformed it into a positive thing. and we worked a lot of that been coaching sessions and talks, and he actually said one sentence that I remember and I also used to love when I coached others that look for you guys by being angry. What would happen if you would be happy instead? What could you, Donna Chief, if it only was for you, not for anyone else. And that just really made the switch? No. And I could just see if you would have me right now in the 30 year old hands that still lives in South unmarked. It would be two different persons or people. Um, I think that is.

spk_1:   13:08
But then, Hey, I love that. And I think that's an interesting perspective, even from me now, because I think one of the things when we were appealed, for example, I love to feel I love technology, and that's what we were doing. But, you know, and I was really honest when I left. One of the reasons why I left was it was not necessarily because of the company was more because of where they were. It wasn't my jam anymore. It was growing into a big beef that wasn't hided by that, and I kind of began to lose my fashion. But one of the things that I made a mistake with which I learned probably the hard way on emotional level, that I had a hard time separating me and my values from the company and the company's value. So it's like I I had grown with it so much from the beginning. I kind of forgot, You know, when you're in the neck with those relationships where it's a girlfriend for a few years when you're together so long that you kind of forget like, who was I before the relationship? You know what? I

spk_0:   14:00
need to become one person? Almost.

spk_1:   14:02
You become that one person in a scary moment when you realize, you know, all my friends are your friends, and I don't even know what's gonna happen if anything doesn't work out right. But I think that the realization for me was no. It's not my company, which is fine, and it's it's normal. But the whole point for me with this podcast is like, you know, what did I gain from that journey and what I did gain with the platform? So I did my Mason thing. I was sort of working indirectly on my brand, which which did help me a lot. And I I now that I had when I left, you know, this massive imposter syndrome. You know what? What is it like to do it on your own? Was it because of them? But because of you and you take a few steps back, it was like, whoa is really interesting to take perspective and one of the things that I want to achieve with this and I'm rambling a bit, but, you know, it feels like what you said there is that you realize how to invest in yourself and, you know, the anger is one thing. But if you forget about investing in yourself and know you're an employee in the end the day, like, are you gaining or and that doesn't mean gaining and career progression by gaining in your development for what you want to do with where you're happy, right?

spk_0:   15:09
Yeah, I always say like people have their own agenda and they should have. But if if your own agenda is actually to get in, kick some ass everything you can and progress all the stages you can. Then it's fine with me because then you've done everything you could, and I've given you everything I could as well. Which means you cannot go further in this journey with me right now. So you actually need to find someone new, someone who's smarter or something that is totally different than what you're doing right now. Just everybody. Oh, it to themselves. Or I believe I owe it to myself. Um,

spk_1:   15:45
yes. And I think it's, you know, when you look at when you look at these high growth companies, right? And I I did this video for Statham, and that was when I I announced that I was leaving. Well, it made me realize, like the growth that I liked was the early stage when it was kind of more chaos. There was not much structure, you know, you had to figure shit out on your own. Um, and it was the glory days, like back in those days. I don't think many people know this, but Cleo was getting an enormous amount of imbalance like we just had the machine running. And to be fair, Alan was doing an amazing job in marketing, and that's really why we were well, we were kind of order. Take this right, you know, we were taking orders, but like giving an experience like it was an experience with a customer, so we could build on that brand. And that's where I think we had a lot of early by reality. But when you get bigger, it's more like structure protesters and it has to happen because it's just that level. But I think it's difficult for a lot of people to separate, like okay, that's not my journey. I don't think I want to go on that because that's not where my heart is. But people like security of having a job. I get it. People like, you know, you might have a pension. You might have kids to see, you know, a mortgage to pay. You don't You don't have the luxury of being super open.

spk_0:   16:56
I would also think what you're telling me here is actually that you are aware where you are good and what you actually want. And I believe that is much higher success rate that you actually know what you're good at and what you want to do. Instead of following along with something and suddenly waking up in biblical. This is not me anymore, you know. I mean, think it's quite, ah insult them. We say it's quite adult of you to be that grown up and figure it out one out yourself and be that self evaluating. I like the

spk_1:   17:26
North. And I mean, what what will come out? You know, it's gonna happen in the next few weeks. So after these podcasts, our lives. But I'm working on something. Which a man you gonna be probably supporting a new company. But it's exactly where I fit in exactly where I know I can add value from Day one. And also there's a definitive timeline on how much I can add value for on, and that's the journey. That's fun, right? And I think what I'm what I think is interesting, and I'd love to hear what you think about it when you know the value that you placed on the company. You can then negotiate on a different level, but it's more like very transparent, like, Hey, I, I like being an employee for you because I like where you're going, what you're brand is doing what your company is trying to achieve, but not losing the fact that, you know, in theory, you're renting me as an employee. I don't really owe you anything when I choose to associate with you, because it's, like quite a synergistic relationship. Right? But then you left feel right, and I can't remember exactly what the Germans were. But, I mean, I I really admired you for taking that. Yeah, well, this is not for where I want to go now and what I need to achieve now, this isn't gonna fit. And that you were you were able to walk. Think a lot of people can't do. A lot of people have that fear. Um, I don't know if you want to go deeper on that, but I think that's an interesting thought. They were people, you know, old enough to take a leap. If you know that you're good enough, But yeah, it's a two way street.

spk_0:   18:49
It was, um It was a hard decision as well. I would almost say, like, I loved what I did a play on. I loved the company and all the people. Um, but there was something inside of me that always wanted to move to New Zealand, for example. And I knew that if I wanted to do that, I needed to make a different amount of money, that money, that appeal and when. I also was able to do at that time, and I was quite transparent with it. And I remember before actually talking to the management. I went home to South Denmark, talk to friends and family and set like a This is what I really want and I want to move to New Zealand for one year for your backpacker, travel around, work on farms and, you know, just back to the basics. Andi, Everybody said like Go do it, man. And and after that, I actually went back home to Copenhagen and head like Isis is sadly enough, working out and the it's kind of weird when you really like what you do and you really like who you're doing it with. So I learned a lot of that out of that situation, because I do. I'm liking the one I am right now, or I'm actually not willing to, but more like open to do something new to like myself even more in the beginning or in the end. Um, my biggest fear in life is to be a bad dad in there in that grumpy old man. And I think it will be a grumpy old man if I don't do what I actually want to do. Yes, and I will. Most likely where I've seen people actually be the grumpy old dad or the grumpy old man on the porch and blaming everybody else. I don't want to blame anyone know nobody should ever be blamed by me because it's most likely my own fault. I just chickened out if I didn't do it. That's what I think. So eso I took the leap and ah, do we think it is? I always not focus about money, but now I actually have to focus about money to get where I wanted to to invest in myself over a longer period, and I I I still remember how the beginning was when I started at the lu me, because I was a bit unsure if I actually sold my soul to the devil and it not negatively towards polio or gloomy. But it's more like if your core value is that you always value money and you are. If your core values that you will value people and yourself hired and money and then you won at one point have to do the opposite. That was a hard thing for me. I worked a lot with meditation and self evaluation, but what is? Ah, the beauty of it is actually. Now I work with people who want to work with people, so I only talk to HR professionals. I talked to sales coaches, which is one of the best thing I know actually develop people to give everything you can and pass it on to the next one. And I figured out that I know what my dream job would be and I would actually be chief happiness officer, because they're so. I mean,

spk_1:   22:03
I could so see you as a chief happiness officer.

spk_0:   22:08
That would be my dream job. Come into work, make sure everybody's feeling good. If there's anything I can help them with, I will, of course, do that. But be kind of like the the problem solver and the beer hunger, you know, everybody can always come to me and ah, I've also seen in an experienced now that everybody almost comes to me as well. That is quite nice. And it's also quite comforting on where I want to go. Um,

spk_1:   22:36
no, I think from what you're saying, and this is something that I lost when I was working at 30 is it feels like you're very in touch with your values and you know, you have You have quite a clear vision of your goals and what you want to get too, right? So, for example, what I've done now is you know, I've really reflected on, like, what did I want to achieve? What? It's important to me, things like financial independence. That's one things like, you know, adventure. I wanted maybe if you wanted to travel you want to explore more of the world things like, you know, investing more in myself in my health, you know, not being too over invested in my work because even though you're passionate in love, what you do But what that begins to do for me. At least now we're my head. That it's an opportunity comes in front of me. Okay, This is a cool opportunity. The first thing I will then do is like if I take this opportunity. Does it get me closer to financial independence? Yes or no? If it's a no, it's an automatic, like Okay, I'm not gonna entertain any further because it's gonna get me away from where I want to go right now and then going through a process where, like, yesterday? No, Yes or no. You know, adventure is gonna be cool. And then that kind of makes it much simpler to evaluate. When I was, like, a like a headless chicken before, like, Yeah, I could do I could conquer the world. I want to do all these opportunities. And then, like a company, though, Remember, in the olden days of the first year and 1/2 it was growing so fast, and this is before you joined. But, you know, new roles had to evolve quickly where I didn't necessarily want to do it. But, you know, for example, yet that would come to me that Hey, we need someone to help with this. You know, I think you'd be a good candidate for it. Would you do it? And when your boss comes to you and says you're basically giving you a kind of a promotion, you don't say no, right. That's like it's the next step up. It sounds exciting sex progression. But if you hadn't if I hadn't thought carefully at that point, does this get me closer? I'm gonna get more stressed. More complication, more work. What's the upside of the reward in those days? It didn't matter. But it's one of those things that I think people really need to evaluate, and it's hard right.

spk_0:   24:38
But I also honestly believe that the ones, the ones that I know that has done a tremendous job in, no matter what date. It is also the ones who are really in touch with themselves and evaluate on what to do. Pair told me to meditate, and I was laughing the first time he said that I was like, Come on,

spk_1:   24:58
I would love to see you meditating. Do you have, like, a yoga mat like a

spk_0:   25:03
thank you don't. But I remember when he told me, like I think

spk_1:   25:06
people get hands with yoga mat.

spk_0:   25:09
No, but the thing is, he told me like I think you should, um, think about actually meditating. And I was like, Dude, I'm a truck mechanic. I'm from south and my you don't do that when you're from there. But he showed me a tactic that means that he actually release all of the tension you have right now. And then Just think of a feeling before you go into the next one. Which also means stepped when people don't know that you do this. What did I do? That they think like hands. How did fuck can you work from 7 30 in the morning to eight or nine at night? How can you keep on going? Well, one thing is the first thing I do every morning is Did I do yesterday what I should to get me closer to my goal? Yes or no? If no. What did I not do? What should I have done? I also really think about what do I need to do today to get there one step closer and then I do it sometimes on the stressful day, how you meditate in smaller sections 10 to 15 times a day between cold calling and then going into a meeting between the meeting and then going out and talking to my colleagues. If you can go out, clear your head and then okay, Now I'll go in, have a talk with talking. How can I do that? Well, I need to let off everything I have up until now and really focus about one thing listening while talking, saying. But also being there, I think that it's one of my best strings right now is actually always give a bit more than people expect and not even or not just m towards colleagues, but also towards clients or customers and family and friends. I think that's why I am really good at pulling people in. Just say one thing is they feel in their I listen to them. I do everything I can to help. I'm also able to because I do my techniques. I think that is a big difference in the behavior. People come across on and again. I ref a lot to appear, but he was my mentor and he learned, Ah, he learned he taught me a lot and he said like being good is not, um something you're born with. It's actually something, it's Ah, it's something you do over and over again, like you have to do. If you really want to be good, you need to one thing is, think positive and you we need to evaluate. They also be need to be straight and honest to yourself on Did I do what I should have? Could have done it better. And right now, when people come to me and tip me on my shoulder and say like a hands, can I give you some feedback on this section here? Yes, of course. And then afterwards, when they have got given me feet back and I tell them Thank you. Done there. Like what? Did you just thank me for me pointing out that you did something you could have done better? Yes, I did. I think that is. I think you learn from what I learned from my mistakes. And I learned from what I did not do well and actually also taking it on. I love new things. I love to grow, and I love to see other people grow. And I think that is some of the core things that yeah, that I bring to the table.

spk_1:   28:26
But here's a question for you. We kind of think about this before we started the podcast. But, you know, zooming in a little bit more sales, Um, on on management. Right. And I think you spoke about, you know, have you ever had a good manager or could coast here? It sounds like what they could like. Mentor, I think a lot of people like Yeah, but how do you find the good mentor? I think it's a bit hit and miss about luck. Some fun. But what do you think of this in sales. And I think this is a critical mistake that a lot of companies always make. But you've been to refuse, so I think you can definitely in here. You're a new account executive. You're killing it. Your question, your numbers. You're doing really well. The natural next line is a promotion to a manager. But what if you're not a good people person? What if you just a really good sales person that, like loved crushing numbers? But I think especially and start up the most companies, The only next step for most people is people manager. So, for example, empleo, you become a team lead, and then you lied like two or three people. Then you know what happened there for me is that it's kind of retarded because you might have the best a ease that are producing the best number, then they have to now manage three people coach them. So you're losing that 40% of their capacity because they can't do the sales that they were the best dad. And they're not necessarily a good people manager because they've never done it. They've never been trained how to coach people. And then I think you get into this weird thing where then that may start to resent it a little bit more because they have to worry about other people and their own targets. But their targets don't change. I think it's a very vicious cycle. What do you thoughts on that, Andi? I'll share what I think.

spk_0:   30:00
Well, I think actually a lot off people or companies or top managers could have done better on this and actually assessing this. But it's also maybe because I'm a people person and I am luckily also quite good at what I do like daily as well. But I think there I've seen it many times that people got promoted because they've been here so long or isn't out there. Turn and I get it that you would I kind of, like, try to reward something someone for doing a good job. But most of the times Oh, are. Sometimes I've seen that people actually didn't want to do it. They rather just, like, do what they really did best. And then just exceeding this. Like what I really liked that Cleo was Actually, they started out to plant If, like, either you go to people's way Or do you go to product way like that? Like how to grow or either to be a manager? I like that a lot, but I've sadly seen places where people have been there for seven years. And suddenly now you're in and on Boarding Master. And and then I was just like, Yes, I see why. And you know, the product at the platform really well. But you are, sadly not as good as with people as you could have been. And that actually hurts a bit that we think more about the KP eyes and the numbers that Okay, if this guy is good at selling, he must also be good at teaching others instead of looking. Okay, which kind of behavioral aspects does he have? Or assets does he have that we can pass on to to someone else? And I think that is Yeah, I've seen it also. When? When I had leaders before that were a bit more junior than me. And because one thing is that you can lead from the top down, But you can also leave from the bottom in up. And I remember when I started please, I had to eat a which is one of the best people I know in the world. And she told me like times, You have more experience. You've tried this before, and you've been a manager before, but I will do my best. And already there she showed me to be more that she was more human than just KP Hydra and very fast. We also came into place, or like a relationship where I could tell her like Eva, I need to give you some feedback. Because what just happened here? I was not a big fan off. And then when we sat down and actually talked about it, she was like Huh? I can see that. Thank you for giving me the feedback. And he didn't have to learn how to give feedback or receive it. And I really admired her and a lot of people can do that. I think there's ah ah, angering people that I have both of it, you know them.

spk_1:   32:46
But it's like I think it comes back to this a memorable in your studio, actually. And I work for a bleeding heavily on Cleo now, but a lot of learning. And Mel and I, when we were hiring, we were like, We want to try hire people that are way better than us. I'd love to be able to bring in stronger people who could teach us stuff, but, you

spk_0:   33:02
know, it's just that is that is, well, actually grew the team so significantly good in the beginning also. Yeah, I have also seen that managers don't want to hire someone who's smarter than them, and I get it because it's now a threat. But if we want to do what we

spk_1:   33:19
But what I think when you put your hat on like okay, you've been a company for a while, you know, you're one of the top performers, but if you could hire someone that's even better on paper and has a track record than you. I think that the natural progression for that person who hires let me waterfall my information you because you could be probably better at this me. But then I will think about where I can migrate to, which could be the next cool challenge, especially in a high growth company when there's so much opportunity you conspiring to any direction. But I like what you said about leading from the bottom up, and I know exactly what you mean about Geeta, and I think there's definitely a few of us that had that mentality. I don't know how strong it is today. There needs to be that essence of like I just I want a coach like I want to give you everything that can push us faster like me. I'm not going to just protect my position when I think when you get to a certain seniority, maybe you begin to protect because there's nowhere else to go.

spk_0:   34:15
Haven't also think when you get to a certain level off self awareness, you know that you have not reached your limit, but right now you're doing everything you can. But if there's someone coming in and can give you a hand or actually give you some sparring or some tips on many things, then it maybe I could gain from this. Maybe I could learn from this as well. So I think it's, uh like we talked about in the beginning. And the Corona virus is escalating. People are snapping stuff off the shows because they think about themselves. But what a great leader would do is go in, take what you need and go out or bring something home to the others instead of taking everything in my car. Now it's you. But I would

spk_1:   34:56
maybe I wonder if it's also think, the fact that there's more and more young leaders, more and more young managers who are like, Yeah, but I'm still really early in my career. So I think I went to a talk and aged ah, generation that, um, survey, like, what's the most important thing to you and your career? And I think like the Mast majorities number one was progression on. I don't understand why especially young people are so crazy. Laser focused on, you know, I've been in the job for six months. I want a promotion. You've been in the goddamn dog six months. You haven't even learned to master the scale of what you're doing and you want him in our coach and cheat someone else when you're And I think, for example, what I saw on Cleo and it's like, um, it's a victim of success, right? You're growing so fast, firing so many people. You can't do anything about this because there's no other way to handle it. You begin to promote quickly because you have to handle the people coming in, and then you're in a role where you're good, you're still learning the new role and mastering the old role. And now you're kind of looking after people, So it's just insane pressure. It's a pressure cooker, right, and then some people can handle it. But I think you get into a situation where you see this. You work 24 7 and it's an interesting balance, but I think it comes back to my biggest one only started here. I think when you're in AA, especially in a failed organization or commercial, let's say you're the best person I would love to see more splitting between functional managers and people manage it if you're a functional manager because you're the best sales or whatever it is that you do. Your role is to become more senior and specialized. But then your tasks would be, for example, once a week or twice once every two weeks. Post a workshop, sharing your knowledge, your execution skills. How are you doing this? So you become the label expert, while the people managers, you know, they're not the best execute er's at the sales. But they're much more connected to the people side and progression and helping people find their Wyatt how they working. And I think that's a nice harmony, but that you can only maybe do that when you have the benefit of time.

spk_0:   37:05
Yeah, I think so, too. Because I remember clear was a fucking rocket ship, man. You know, it's just me. And it went so fast everything. And it was fun. And it was a lot of work, and I was Luckily we did it with some good people is wrong. We did something good. They're, um But I also think it's speed or time is something that is really important. Because I see it now. Um, where I want to teach my successor what I know. And when I say stuff in one sentence or three sentences Hey, look at me like, Are you crazy? I would never do this in a meeting, but then I take the time, sit down and talk them through the logic behind it. And then they're like, that makes perfect sense. And when they didn't do it, then they will. Also, they have actually had winds with it as well. But the thing is, if it don't

spk_1:   37:54
sample of that, give me some gold. Here, give me some bold hands.

spk_0:   37:58
No, I think

spk_1:   37:59
if you wouldn't mind, I'll give you one of mine.

spk_0:   38:02
I think one of the one of the best ones I had is actually that when you give out pricing it, it should always be that the client has the choice. It should not be like this is This is Ah, fuck you offer. Either you do it or you don't. But I always try to, like come towards the client as much as possible. So I would always label three different choices because it's up to you. What? If you want to choose me, you should also be able to choose what you want, so it should not be like if you choose me, this is what you get. Of course, when you have a limited product, that ISS may be hard, but I always believe in. It's more powerful to give someone a choice, and they choose, then actually pushing someone to do something in a specific way. So I would always do like a B and C offer. And if you don't like a and B, then let's combine them or whatever, because I'm here to find out how we can work together. I'm not here to make exactly 18,430 euros. I'm here to help you because you told me about your pain and you know what I mean.

spk_1:   39:09
But I think I love it, and I agree, like it's so much more consultative and like you're on their side. You would love for you to use the product, but I think that's where the balance between management and KP eyes and what you need to deliver becomes a very difficult balance where I'm a big believer, for example, of you know, I would hate to push customer onto a product that is not a good fit for it, but they might be willing to pay for it because that the damage that they caused later in terms of customer success time in terms of product problems in terms turning so much higher than the short term gain right. But as an employee, like in theory, the way most commission models are designed it like I'm a sales person, I want the contract and I don't give a shit because I want to do with it. And that's a horrible cycle measure, like a really significant owner in the business. You want to think about business in general.

spk_0:   39:59
But then it also like when have you ever seen a sales organization that pace because you treated a customer really well. They pay because you closed the deal. They don't pay because you gave a perfect advice to a customer and I remember telling people like, You know what? I don't think we should talk more, because what do you want to achieve is number we can deliver and I'm very sorry. I would love to have you to buy something for thousands of euros, but it won't help you and you won't be happy, so I think you should not do it, because then it also again with the core value with that core integrity. If you fuck over that 11 time, you will do it again and again and again. I've always tried to be very strict with my internal guidelines on this is a good fit, um, justice make sense? And have they actually Are they willing to come onto the team and or did I push him, too? I don't want to push them. And I am very also sometimes also haven't hit target because I said that you know what it feels like. Your gut feeling is not there. What should be Let's wait. And then they're like, What? Are you working in sales? Yes, but I don't want you to make a mistake, because that will also be my mistake.

spk_1:   41:08
And I think for the fairness of transparency to anyone listening, though, isn't sales finds. It's interesting. I think that situation that you're in comes with the benefit of being in an organization for a bit of time. Where you've built the pipelines have senses like I I am not pressured within, For example, the 1st 3 months of a job. You know, you need to close. You need to kind of show that you can perform right. But I think, for example, for me when I was in when I was crushing it with some feels like a year and 1/2 in my pipeline was so enormous that I didn't have to push because I knew the funnel was gonna work. I had loaded you coming. I had everything sack pretty nicely. So you can focus much more on being honest, transparent and adding value and disrespect disqualify people that aren't affinity good. And it's sadly, I think that's the benefit of giving someone time who focuses on top funnel who could make really build out there. They're potential kind of customer base on, I think when you're in a new job, especially in failed on the pressure cooker, when you're really being pushed, you know, you kind of begin to sacrifice that survive. Have you agree?

spk_0:   42:12
Yes, of course, because you have to, like, deliver something. In the beginning, you have to show them that they didn't make the wrong choice. But I was also saying it really depends on who is your leader right now. Here at the loony where started. I know my leader from trust Pilot back in the days he knows that I will work my ass off to get there and he knows why I'm here. So he is not in doubt off that I will do everything I can. I'm now doing the German, Austrian and Swiss market here, and that is a tough nut to crack. And not because the platform or anything else but more of the culture. It takes longer time because of this bigger deals. And it is a different culture than we have up in the Nordics in Scandinavia. But he also said to me like hands I know, but just do what you do best, and then we'll come have Ah, great colleague, Smart colleague beginning here who's just said like hands. I can see you do everything right in every meeting. So this is only a matter of time and that is not everyone has the endurance. Two. Stay on that one. I remember. I always talk about winning. When I wanted you back it clear we won. Maybe. What did we win? 56? Yes, it's a week. Something like that. In a good week here. To be honest, I had seven. Yes, it's now in seven months. And they all came in the last few months. And that was a really tough nut to crack, because one thing is I know that the they want me to deliver. But another thing is, I want to deliver. I'm not here for fun. I'm not here to drink coffee and play at the foosball table. That's not why I'm here. I'm here to kick some ass. And I was actually ah, great learning. When you go to its higher enterprise sales or mid market sales again and actually have to be a bit more conscious about yourself, What is actually what does winning mean now when you can do it once or twice every quarter, with bigger ones in the beginning, compared to five times a week? So you need really I used a lot of energy and then time on actually evaluating on did I do what I do? Good. I have three success questionnaires which help me find again. If of course, it's here.

spk_1:   44:16
We gotta find that

spk_0:   44:17
I can get you up. Give him a call. He's in no way, son. of fewer Nothing. He helped me figure out because he had such a simple way of explaining. And if you do 100 calls a day and you book five meetings 99% out of sales leaders and save people would be like, what? You got 95 nose. But he was like, Damn, you got five? Yes. Why did you get five years? And if you don't figure out like, what is the difference that made five people say yes? Then you actually can figure out which type of behavior am I putting into this call or into this meeting that takes. But that makes five people say yes to what I do. And if you don't figure out the three similar clarity's to it and you practice this over and over and over again, you become really fucking good, he told me. And what would happen if you go to your knees? Give them a go? Give her a glass of milk and 10 more Take this glass of milk, sit on the couch. She would take the glass of milk, sit on the couch if I would tell her. Take the glass of milk. Don't spill. Sit on the couch. She would go like this and shake it all And like Oh, no, no. I need to be worried about not spilling. But if I tell you like you know, the positive mindset and that is really when you figure out what I think I figured out when? As soon as I know what I'm good at, Andi, I can emphasize even more than I would almost believe Nobody can beat me because I know I'm I'm really good. Yeah, Those are I have to be myself because there's no other hands out there like there is literally no one out there. Maybe you look like me. But you're not like me. The other thing is active. Listening. What are you actually telling me? What are you asking for? If you are asking me something, is that what you actually asking? Or is it because you're worried about something or you don't trust me or something like that? And the last thing is plus 10%. So if you sit here and now I have 100 kilometers an hour. I know I have to be 100 and 10 because then I can drag you up So after five minutes I would be 100 20 and you're 110. And if I can get you up to 180 kilometres and now it's with hand Danish, then I know we have a good connection to check on. We can make some jokes, we can have some fun and then everything will be so much better.

spk_1:   46:21
No matter completely fallen. And this is gold dust. This is gold. This is gonna be so good. However, I think mine mine that I learned really honestly from Theo. I don't know what this work for everyone. I was just so brutally honest on on my demos. And when I spoke to people and, for example, we would go through and we would talk about technology. We never really spoke about Cleo. It was more like what tech could do. And I think focusing on the space rather than pitching the product gets people like all this person's actually interested in. What we're talking about is also in the early days, almost always at the end, I would honestly tell them, but, hey, this is gonna sound weird. But, you know, we do have editors and I think it's important that you go out, research them. This is the new technology. Not everyone's aware of it. And I

spk_0:   47:06
remember the first time I saw you do that. I was like, What is he doing? But they make something work on

spk_1:   47:14
that I would tell them, like check these guys out there from here and there. From there they're a bit different, but they're doing things in slightly different ways. Marce stands in. Our position is about trust, transparency, autonomy and empowerment. That's how the entire vision is filled and it's much more focused on like the employees experience, and that's that's the extent and that's where people are really behind this product. And then, you know, they would go away and I would send the links, maybe like thanks. And then they would like to at least 95% of the time always come back because when I won, there was like people like saw me as more of an acknowledged expert, and they would been asking in the future, even after they became a client. Hey, we're looking at getting something else. What do you say? And that was very special, and that was, I think in the early days that was possible because the volume wasn't crazy. And when you get into this machine, it comes a bit more tricky. But and the other trick for me was when people would mention you on LinkedIn, For example, if someone mentions expenses or whatever and they would attack, for example, me, you should speak the hacking. I think the most important thing that you must do as a professional is never pitched your service. There was a specific question. I'm looking for suggestions for on expense management system. What I would then do it. Hey, that's amazing that you're thinking about this. There's several options and I wouldn't lift them all. And then I would say, We're doing this. They're doing that. They're doing this load this stuff to look at. Let me know if you have any questions. I'm happy to give you some more time because that gives them time to review. They'll look into the market, but then you've answered the question. You've given them advice. You haven't said like, Hey, give me a call. I I can call you and set up a meeting with what I have

spk_0:   48:47
to go out

spk_1:   48:48
tonight and then in the back of my mind, right? That's a freebie. If that person had intact you, you never would have seen that. And definitely, it's a freebie. Don't think of it. It's like I need to win it. Think of it is I need to add value here on the community, and that was just that. I think you're super lined with it, too, but it's just simple things like that. More people. I'm not even thinking commercial people, just any person in business. That's how you should approach.

spk_0:   49:11
I think it also isn't generally if you really know what you're good at, a new you do that as well and you actually want to help and not want to do something else. I am figured out after a lot of stuff happened in my life after moving to. No way. If I actually give a bit more than I expect, then maybe not tomorrow or from the same person. But I will get something more back because I did stuff right in. Wouldn't I wouldn't call it karma, but it's more like human nature and empathy, you know, like be a fucking human. It is really hard these days. Guess you need to be everywhere and you need to look nice and everything. But if you're just, like, be nice to people and everything will work out. And I think a lot of people have are very busy with having this perfect example on how we should look, how we should do and which type of career we should have. No do What the fuck makes you happy? I'm sorry for cursing.

spk_1:   50:04
No, I think you're part of what I'm thinking about with this with this podcast, right? It Mental health, right? People are judging themselves so much on their peers. And I really wanted human on individuals. People like you, like, you know, I feel like speaking. You have, like, you're so comfortable in your skin. You just know what you're good at. You know what you enjoy doing, and you're not gonna touch this like that. But I think people should just listen to this like you don't have to know what you want to achieve in life. And I'm speaking from my perspective, So I could be not speaking for everyone, but the second you lose sight. And when you're not having fun when you're not waking up, you know, motivated when you're when you're just kind of like I'm just going through the motions, get a bit of a wake up call. Yeah, and it's hard. It's hard to go through that. And I think employers and employees need to really get a grasp on that and that Happy filter.

spk_0:   50:53
I remember in the ninth grade I got kicked out of school because I did some stupid shit. Oh, of course it was. Ah, South 10. Mark, you don't have a lot to do. So what do you do when you're in a class? Oh, our school excursion. And of course. So I got kicked out. I got the home talk from my mom every single day for half a year, and they told me you should never show your face here again unless it is for the exam. And me and three others we got kicked out. But we also all four of us. We have the highest average, um, results on all the test and they were like, What the fuck just happened here? And I think it was three years ago I met my old German teacher Ah, down in Flensburg at something we called Push Myler, where you go down and drink with friends in this Christmas time. And he was like a harms. What are you doing now? When I told him what I've done and he was like I always knew even the biggest fuck up they will do something good. And then he laughed and actually funny stories. I ended up actually giving some motivational speeches to the eighth and the ninth grade in that school afterwards of window. Now, four times, three times, I think. And what really touched me at the 2nd 1 when I was there is a little kid. He said, like, Well, because I told him about like who I am and what happened with my father and what what made me do what I do and why I'm always giving a bit more than everybody else in my prospection. And then I told him, like you could be in what the fuck you want to be. Look at me. I'm uneducated. Truck mechanic. I've been actually cutting nails and counts for two years, and now I'm in sales and I've never learned this. I've had to figure it out along the way. And it was like, Well, I really want to Like my mom says, I need to do distance in this And I told him like I'm sorry to say, But please look at the world you live in right now you can sit and play counterstrike and make more money than I ever will if you're fucking good at it. And what does that tell you? And then the kids there were like him. I don't know. And then my old teacher, he was like raising his hand. And I said, Yes, what's happening? He was like, Well, if you're really good at what you do when you believe in it, you should keep on doing it exactly that. You say if you have fun with doing it, if you get personally something out of it, keep on doing. But if you wake up one day and be like, really tired of it, get the fuck out, do something else. Everything can be tied together when you look back, which not when you look forward to the

spk_1:   53:17
man on that. No, we think we should wrap it up. But that was that was just I was amazing. No, it was It was super cool. Like, haven't you need to speak to more people? Men like you have this great voice, but I love the story like you have on like your layers are so interest thing because there's a hidden message is behind everything that's been happening. But I think that's the biggest point. We just made the end like if you're not enjoying it, if you can get out in a smart way, find a way to do it. Don't just jump out tomorrow. But, like, you know, if you can find ways to kind of get out and it's not gonna expect now with Corona Virus, you know anyone who has a job hold on to your job because this could get scary in the next two months. But

spk_0:   53:54
next thing is, I wouldn't be surprised when when all this is over, there will be a lot of new startups that will help prevent a crisis like this. So as we say and then might take now, there's a schizo they got from island. Well, it means it's not. There's nothing in the world that is so bad that it's not good for something else because there's always something that will get you kicked out of a job. But then you figure out like I should never have been there anyway. And you get a new job or you do like trust in that There's a reason what? Why stuff happens. You know,

spk_1:   54:25
cool. I get the last thing than any any like, Well, I guess you've been. We've been laced with amazing tips and advice, but any one specific thing you'd share with people from your own personal perspective. If you want to try something tomorrow to see if it works for you for building, you know your confidence, your your like. You're the techniques that you want to kind of focus. You

spk_0:   54:46
think it's just be a bit playful. I remember when I started you and I told all of you guys work in Jack and Jones in the weekend. You are like what? You've been country manager at a vaccine and done amazing stuff there. You've worked at trust pilot know you started clear, but you work Jack Jones and people look down on me, you know, like, what are you doing? And it was not because it was a bad joke, but more like I don't understand. It's two different roles. But the thing is, I wanted to be better at what I want to do. So I actually went in there almost every Saturday and work for think. The first half year, I worked two days a week for Jack and Jones, and I work five days a week. Leo. It was fucking heart. But I learned so much because at Cleo I can win. Like I said 4 to 5 times a week at Jack and Jones. Aiken suddenly win, let's say 60 80 100 times on a Saturday. But it also means I have 250 clients coming in every Saturday. And if I want to figure out, like, how can I start to be better at communicating what I really want to do? So I used it as training. It was my training field, so I wouldn't say it was a human expert experiment. But it was more like, How can I get better? What I do and when you don't know, Abel's actually transferred into the clear world, which I luckily good Dennis just perfect, and I still use some of the phrase I learned in Jack and Jones also add a loony, but I would just say like if you want to try something out, try it out like nobody ever died from actually failing and smacking their head in the ground in there.

spk_1:   56:17
Remember when actually before pally I worked in Q. It and Clerk and I had two jobs at once. Both pastime quirk with pure cold calling super aggressive. It was difficult, right? Shoe. It was identified sales, you know, slow timeline, completely different worlds. But like mixing skills. And it was fun to jump between both because you exercise different muscles.

spk_0:   56:36
You do. And though you do cold calling a lot or you do those small fast transitions or transactions, that doesn't mean you can translate it to bigger ones. Remember, one of the best things I did was actually using a specific race when I came into a meeting with the CFO when he was standing in a suit and I was wearing my white T shirt and the done Juries remember those where people were like, What the fuck you doing man and hit him in? And he was like, I think you should suit up. And I told him, like I think you should human up. And then he was just like, and then you broke down and then we could Oh, well Oh, yeah. You You're human. I'm human. We can talk. So I told him, like maybe you should come down and we should just talk about what's important instead of how we looking. Yeah, in the fucked out, it's gonna be okay

spk_1:   57:22
on. That was a pleasure. Always get to catch up with you. I'm super excited. We're seeing what happened to the next going to New Zealand. Hopefully, everything kind of smooth over and everything kind of happens, But you're the kind of person that always land on it.

spk_0:   57:36
I have to. Nobody else was doing it for me

spk_1:   57:39
to stay. Amazing,

spk_0:   57:41
uh, soon looking forward to seeing other sounds and people kind of reading